Forum:What is Convergence? Cont.
This is intended for the same purpose as the thread: "What is Convergence?" Since it had become so long, it started to lag. I intend to add the thread links regarding Convergence to the corresponding talk page for future reference. --LBCCCP 22:40, February 8, 2011 (UTC) :Just add p1, p2, p3 if it grows any bigger. Would be easier to actually follow them Komodo Saurian 00:19, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Overall, I think this discussion will be helpful in developing new ideas regarding many plot points in the Dead Space universe, as group discussion is always more effective in developing nuances - like the writers of the American Constituion. --LBCCCP 22:49, February 8, 2011 (UTC) Ralok, I like the idea of the Marker halves having different functions - reminds me of Ying and Yang. Regardless of the Necromorphs' relationship with the Marker, it is evident the markers have deceptively broad motives, thusfar eluding definitive comprehension. --LBCCCP 22:49, February 8, 2011 (UTC) Convergence, by definition (and according to the teachings of Unitology) is two or more things converging; IE: becoming one. The hallucination of Nicole said that it (the Marker) was doing what it was meant to do. IMO convergence is simply the process of creating a Hive Mind (or some other giant creature made of multiple Necromorphs). Possibily to amplify the Marker's own power over the Necromorphs or just "for the heck of it" (the hallucinations produced by the Marker itself only means of "communicating" appear slightly insane so it might be doing it randomly, like an insane person would or it could just be using insane hallucinations to scare the crap out of people so that they will kill themselves and be turned into Necromorphs) Blaziken rjcf 00:10, February 9, 2011 (UTC) I had an idea earlier today. What if the Site 12 Marker didn't attempt to prevent the outbreak because it was less than three years old? If the Markers are, indeed, sentient, then isn't it possible they mature? The Black Marker was, what, 2000+ years old? The Red Marker was at least 200 years old. Maybe those two had matured enough to prevent Convergance. MatthewGold 01:31, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Maybe. I'm more inclined to believe the markers function on a network, so age doesn't really matter. Btw, the Black Marker is 65,000,000+ years old. --LBCCCP 03:49, February 9, 2011 (UTC) The Site 12 marker seemed to be in place on Titan Station for an experiment, since they chose a populated station to house the manufacturing facility as opposed to the Aegis VII facility. Throughout Dead Space 2, Tiedman mentions evacuation procedures, and the Overseer mentioned that there was to be no evactuation, if an outbreak occurred. That, in combination with the perplexing actions of the marker, makes me believe that the Overseer wanted a test run of a marker deployment in a populated area, which was still self contained. And since the Earthgov knows the nature of the Unitologist church, I believe Codename Vandal was allowed, even predicted, to sabotage essential defensive equipment, facilitating the infection. Unclekulikov 02:08, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Uncle Kulikov Yeah, I definitely agree. I think the Overseer purposely set the pieces in place for the sh** to hit the fan. It was probably pretty obvious fanatical Unitologists would be able to infiltrate the project at some point, as it was in a public area. --LBCCCP 03:53, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :here is the thing the marker was doing everything in its power to get you to it, under the lie that it was trying to help you destroy it an thus destroy the necros. BUT the necros were doing EVERYTHING in their power to stop you from getting near the thing, they are trying to prevent convergence in my opinion. THey are the voice outside the marker not the one within the marker. They knew that all would be lost if convergence started, that life would be extinguished to bring about a new race modeled after the marker builders. The necros are the vanguard against death, unlife protecting life. But they take extreme measures to do so. They taint the bodies of the dead so the markers cannot use them . . . at least this is one theory. But the idea that the markers are a virus, and the necros are the immune system appeals in several ways to me. It woul be a nice twist. And the supposed signal that is animating the necros . . . no, the necros activate themselves when they know a marker is in proximity. The pathogen spreads without the help of humans, but in a dormant state. This theory is nice an like most of my theories is design to cover up ALL the plot holes, but I still feel like something is missing . . . I am going to read martyr soon, then play the mobile game . . . from what I can descern they are two works that have the most info about the markers aside from the main series. Then I am going to read salvage (is that even available?) just because ralok 05:51, February 9, 2011 (UTC) ::But convergence only happened when all of the necromorphs approached the marker, the timing and Tiedman's reaction makes me think the marker was attracting the necromorphs, in addition to the people imprinted by the marker. Think about it, what do necromorphs want? More material to consume, and the marker draws the living in with promises of what they want. The critical mass of bodies must have triggered the convergence event, and then like Tiedman says, the incredible amount of necromorphs was increasing the magnitude of the event. I get teh sense they were trying to destroy the thing actually. To much mystery . . . You seem to be under the impression that hte necromorphs are part of this, I dont think they are . . . the two forces are shown opposing each other on more than one occassion. Your theoy involves throwing out half the things we already know about markers. including the fact that they REPEL necromorphs, and produce a DEAD SPACE (name of the f****king game) that puts the cells into domrancy. ralok 07:31, February 9, 2011 (UTC) : You seem to forget that this marker is completely different than the Red one. This marker doesn't suppress the necromorphs, it seems to push them into a frenzy. And the markers are related to the necromorphs, just by having the genetic code written on them, and also, how the bits of the red marker created necromorphs in Aftermath. So even the one marker that has been shown to inhibit the infection has the capability, without human engineering, to create necromorphs. : I was pointing out the timing of the convergence event, which happened after the necromorphs got close to the marker. : Unclekulikov 07:50, February 9, 2011 (UTC) : : Also the Marker didn't create the Necromorphs in Aftermath, Stross did and accidently released them due to his Hallucination. USM Cpl Lawliet 08:22, February 9, 2011 (UTC) but they make it very clear that they dont really know how to build the marker, that it is just making them build it . . . . unless only the malicious half of the marker wass passed on by the red marker . . . that is one possibility, that the benevelont half of the marker (the unweaponized half as I like to think of it) is the half with greater drive to reproduce itself. Thus the titan marker could possibly be an unbalanced force. . . and the shards of the red marker that animate could be from the maleavolent half. The unbalance could even be attributed to the fact that stross was only exposed to a piece from teh malevolent half . . . so if the markers two halves represent a weapon and a container . . . then your theory and mine could blend together nicely. Think about it, the marker was placed on earth for control purposes, purpose 1 (half one) keep necromorphs away so life can develop naturally. Purpose two (half 2 maleavolent half) to destroy life if the life on the planet proves itself a threat . . . . its possible thath the titan marker has only meleavolent halves, thus only has one purpose and that is to destroy life . . . Hmm I also like the theory that the markers personalities differ with age . . . (im sticking with the theory that hte necromorphs are an opposing force to the markers though, lawliet read my blog if you havent already, i think you will like my eplanation of how the marker inavertainly created the necros) ralok 08:25, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Just something I found intresting/trivial while reading Ralok's post, The idea that the marker posses two different personality's/objectives/goal's etc could also be said to be relevant in the fact that the marker is constructed of two intertwining pieces. USM Cpl Lawliet 14:52, February 9, 2011 (UTC) It could be seen from different perspectives, yes, but if the Necromorphs wanted to destroy the Marker then it would have made more sense for them to stand down or to evene help Isaac get to the Marker. As UncleKulikov said, Convergence seemed to be timed exactly when the Necromorphs amassed around the Marker. So if they wanted to defeat it they would have just stayed away and let Isaac take care of it. --LBCCCP 17:04, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :But isaac was needed to complete the convergence, likely because his mind had the necessary information or programming (i dont know how it works) . . . they couldnt risk convergence being completed. Plus they had no way of discerning isaacs goals, they probably knew he was communing with the marker though. And I was under the impression that the necromorphs were trying to destroy the marker . . . that the convergance was triggered to ty and keep the necros off it . . . I am trying to view this from multiple perspectives though, keep that in mind, I am here to contemplate every angle, not just any one. . . You guys seem to have the necromorphs being part of convergence theory down though. Im just providing different perspectives and ideas (I have had like what . . eighteen theories). ralok 17:31, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Still I like to think of the marker as a life control device, the two functions of the black marker embodied by the two man made markers we have seen thus far. The red marker being the embodiment of its positive half, the half that protects life, and teh titan marker (we really should move site twelve marker to titan marker) being the embodiement of the negative half, the raid can half that is. But i think the theory of necromorphs as antibodies is more likely, that or the convergomorph theory (the one that seems to be the dominant theory) ralok 17:42, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Hey, that's how constructive discussion and deduction works. We're all just trying to get a better handle on things with hopes that DS3, or maybe a great DLC package for DS2, will give us some objectivity. Anyway, good point, but Isaac tried to kill himself in Chapter 5 I think, when he hallucinated Nicole trying to stab him in the face with a syringe. Then she accuses him of trying to escape his guilt for letting her die. I believe that hallucination was the Marker trying to kill him right there and then, which leads me to believe it doesn't matter if Isaac were to die near the Marker and around the Convergence; just that he dies. It's likely the Marker has the kind of range to absorb Isaac's mind anywhere on the Sprawl, if not further. More likely that his memories would have been absorbed when made into a Necromorph. I agree with your halves idea; there's not enough information to disregard it, and it seems logical to me. Yeah I didn't come up with Site 12 Marker either. I really wish it was named in a text log or something--LBCCCP 17:51, February 9, 2011 (UTC) This theory on the two halves being driven by opposing ideals is brilliant. I find it very entertaining reading about your theories, and the vast majority of them are well developed and completely plausible. SoulSurvivor17 17:55, February 9, 2011 (UTC) It is referred to as "The Site 12 Marker" after the credits by someone who, based on the dialogue, was well informed or even very involved in the creation of multiple markers in multiple locations. It can also be reasonably assumed that he is a high ranking EarthGov official, either public or clandestine SoulSurvivor17 17:59, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :I like the halves idea too, plus it actually fits snugly with the convergomorph theory . . . and if the two halves of the device each function differently it could explain the shard in aftermath . . . Well the reason I don't like site twelve marker is because site twelve had more than one marker didnt it? Wasnt there a smaller red marker sized marker being constructed (with lasers somehow) . . . i hope the black marker is bigger than the titan marker. I think titan marker fits better, because of its titan size, and its location of creation. And yes when i form a theory I form it taking EVERYTHING into account, i dont just forget things (like the dead space serrounding the marker) i actually come up with reasons, thats why they seem plausible. ralok 18:02, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :and it wasnt reffered to as the site twelve marker, they just said marker site twelve was a total loss. It just refers to the marker creation site, not the marker itself. ralok 18:06, February 9, 2011 (UTC) I wouldn't be surprised if the halves thing is at least partially correct as revealed in future installments. As for the Black Marker's size, it seems much bigger than the Red Marker based on dialogue in Martyr, but I'd say nowhere near the size of the Site 12 Marker/Titan Marker/Big-Ass Marker, because the Black MArker is transported onto a floating ship-compound for examination.--LBCCCP 18:23, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Speaking of the fact that they can and have built markers both by lasers (probably through smelting and transmission of the genetic code simultaneously) and through growing in mineral baths, I wonder if that affects the traits of the finished product. Like, maybe one is more efficient than the other in perfect replication. --LBCCCP 18:26, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :I actually expect the black marker to be taller, but not as thick (wait that sounds gross) I have no idea how lasers would build a marker . . . I am not sciency enough to understand that. But i would be inclined to think that there are different stages to the contruction . . . I think it is all very wierd. But there definitly seems to be some potency variations, seems related to size. ralok 18:42, February 9, 2011 (UTC) That whole construction process perplexed me as well, so much so that I asked my Physical Chemistry professor how a highly complex mineral-based structure could be constructed using revolving lasers and she gave me a pretty lengthy response, the summarised version being what I just said. --LBCCCP 18:49, February 9, 2011 (UTC) So, like I posted on your other forum which dealt with your theory of Necromorphs being a force opposed to the marker and convergence Ralok, I am opposed to the idea. It doesnt fit well when you've looked at every piece of deadspace source material, Martyr being key to any theory formulation regarding the marker, as it deals specifically with the topic. Point One: It is explained that the black marker is a SINGLE piece of rock, and thus does not have 2 parts, it was created for a purpose, that purpose is convergence. Point Two: The marker has a "pulse signal" a telepathic signal as a means of communication, I think it's first priority as alluded to in Martyr, is self-protection, it wants to be left alone. It's second priority, once disturbed, is initiating the "convergence effect" maybe this is ALSO a means of self-protection, or maybe its something else, I dont know. Point Three: The symbols on the marker, which constitute the language of the Unitologist church, ARE THE DNA SEQUENCE FOR THE NECROMORPHS, the black marker, and presumably all other copies of the marker, are 100% capable of creating the basic form of necromorph "life" on their own, but can also imprint the DNA sequence within capable minds through its telepathy, almost ensuring an outbreak when living creatures get to close to it. Why would the marker so actively pursue the creation of a "species" intent on stopping its own self-interested plans? It doesnt make sense for the necromorphs to be an "anti-body" to the marker. Point Four: In the deadspace comics which were created to tell the story of Ishimuras infection, it is shown that necromorphs DO NOT ATTACK people under the clear influence of the marker, if a person is intent on furthering the convergence effect, necromorphs do not hinder their efforts. This also lends explanation to the deadspace field surrounding the marker - necromorphs could potentially disrupt the more delicate and less explained processes the marker was designed for - such as replication, the dead space field in Martyr is the only reason Michael Altman was able to recieve the blueprint to create the red marker from the original black marker, and thus furthered the convergence effect. This explains why the deadspace field is selective in its implementation, when Isaac is moving the marker about the Ishimura in the first game, you are absolutely SWAMPED in necromorphs - there is no deadspace effect, this suggests the marker is acting out of self interest, not trying to keep the necromorphs away. I also want to add a few notes from a more casual perspective. If Isaac kills himself at any time (the needle scene in the church of unitology) it is very likely an infector would find him - tranform him into a necromorph, and eventually get him to the marker for him to be properly absorbed, so the marker probably doesnt give a shit when/where/how he dies. The convergence effect is clearly a result of the necromorphs gathering at the marker, tiedeman even says "this isnt our fault, we didnt expect for there to be so many bodies" before convergence kicks into overdrive. The necromorphs are surrounding the thing, and staring at it, not attempting to rip it apart, this discounts the theory that necromorphs are infecting dead human bodies to make them "useless" to the marker, the marker is clearly using the necromorphs to activate its "convergence effect" I dont know, it seems pretty indesputable to me, while I'm sure there are still alot of twists, turns, and surprises instore for we deadspace fans, I dont think that necromorphs being the "good guys" is going to be one of them. -- Necropheliac 20:17, February 9, 2011 (UTC) I agree with parts of your interpreation, but some things you cited in your argument are not objective. It's actually more alluded to that the hallucinations telling people to leave the Marker alone in Martyr was a result of their own psychological defense barrier against the influence of the Marker; the voices telling them to unite or "make whole" would be from the Marker. Also, that the Necromorphs are the intended result of the Marker code is not concrete. In fact, it is said somewhere, though I forgot where, that the Necromorph DNA is simpler, albeit more versitile than human DNA. Whether human DNA and that of whatever alien that created the Black Marker are that fluidly interwoven is not knowable right now. It is possible that the transission from human to Necromorph/possibly eventually the alien race itself would be that easily facilitated if all things human were programmed as such by that alien race if/when they created humanity through the placement of the Black Marker on Earth 65 million years ago. --LBCCCP 22:30, February 9, 2011 (UTC) And your argument against the Marker being two parts just because now it's a whole is very sloppy. If I take two pieces of metal and weld them together, they'd be one piece now, too. In fact, it makes more sense for Markers to be regarded as a whole because if they were two seperate parts and identifiable as such, they would would probably be unstable with the two halves working against eachother, like if you had the Red Marker and the Site 12 Marker in the same room together. --LBCCCP 22:46, February 9, 2011 (UTC) Good point, the initial hallucinations are more of a defense mechanism against the marker than an aspect of the marker itself - which is what I was trying to say of it, as I couldnt explain two aspects of the marker speaking through the visions, and I clarified that in my argument. Theres nothing which states that the necromorphs are the intended result of the markers DNA code, but the only thing we know which alludes contrary to that is the unitologist beliefs. The only explanation for the necromorphs being an incorrect reflection of the markers intent would be if the marker was BROKEN, take the necromorph fish in the book for example, simply by being in close proximity with the "naturally" occuring pink-skin-substance around the marker, the fish were infected by it. Second, my argument about the marker being whole is taken directly from the book aswell - they describe it as being one perfect piece of stone, it WAS NOT put together like two pieces of metal, it was created from a single slab of whatever-the-fuck, and crafted perfectly. You are right in clarifying what I "attempted" to say, that the initial hallucinations experienced by people in close proximity to the marker is a defense mechanism against the markers effects, but other than that - your counter arguments arent much based in established plot. -- Necropheliac 00:36, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I detest speaking with people who advocate corpse rape . . . But listen carefully, the marker has two indentifiable halves. Both halves of it are connected, thus the same piece. The black marker was the basis for the unitlogy symbols (that are everywere) . . . Previously I eplained the necromorph DNA being on the marker as part of the markers defense sytem against the beings instead of reading "turn this DNA on" like you think, i believe that one aspect of the marker is "turn this DNA off" Now I have presented several theories here simply for the sake of presenting different theories . . . the antibody theory I think is supported by the death of the dinosaurs in some ways . . . but the most likely theory here i feel is the convergomorph theory, i supplemented that theory with the idea that the marker has different functions (an that both markers we have seen thus far are representative of those functions) . . . Also I havent read martyr yet, but remember the absolute superior canonical force is teh games in this franchise . . . i have beaten the first too and gotten angry at dead space ignition, so I am not completely ignorant on teh subject of the markers ralok 01:11, February 10, 2011 (UTC) my sadness has reached new heights , I have written the word too instead of two . . . im pathetic. ralok 01:20, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Here is a quote from Martyr supporting the two halves theory, copied directly from the text (I have it on Kindle PC): I've noticed here and there, traced in the dust or freshly carved into the bark of trees, a crude symbol like two horns twisted together." Books always work in allusions like that. --LBCCCP 01:22, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I don't think the Necromorph-fish is evidence of some malfunction of the Marker; if its purpose is to transform necrotic flesh then it's fulfilling its purpose. It's not like by not specifying only humans the same long term effect wouldn't result. A Necromorph fish isn't going to stop Necromorphs. If anything, the transformation of all life seems to be more fitting, especially if the intent of the alien race is to transform the biology of the planet on which they place a Marker into an exact copy of their own society. --LBCCCP 01:22, February 10, 2011 (UTC) LBCC - I remember that quote, but its referring to the Mayan indiginous people and their myth of the "Tail of the devil" not the marker itself, which is subject to there interpretations. Read the chapter where they take their first dive and see the marker for the first time, focus on how they describe the marker. Then I beleive they mention it again when Altman is raising it up to the research facility, quote those parts of the book. I didnt say a necromorph fish is a malfunction, I said exactly the opposite, I just didnt seperate the sentence with the proper punctuation. I am saying the only explanation for the necromorphs to NOT be a correct function fo marker would be if the marker is broken, which I disagree with. The necromorph fish is PROOF that the marker is working as it was intended to work. The DNA sequence on the marker is able to create the pink filmy life form from water, presumably carbon, and the signal it emits, thus it is working correctly. Ralok - good on you for posing questions that make people THINK about things, my whole argument is based in not thinking that necromorphs are the good guys, but are acting in exactly the way they are supposed to with no hidden strings attached. The games are the primary canonical source, but Martyr was concieved and endorsed by visceral in order to shed light on some of the more perplexing and illusive aspects of the game, the marker and unitology - so it is a vital source in understanding this material. -- Necropheliac 01:36, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I know it was in the context of Mayan folklore, but I would put more stock in tje minute details of the natives' description, because knowing BK Evenson's writing style, and also that he's a great writer who puts everything in for a reason, I think there's a reason the descriptions of the Marker by the Mayans and by Altman differ. Obviously Amerindians would have a more naturilistic apporach to description with a relgious lore (which nicely sets the basis for the Unitology perspective), whilst Altman and other Westerners would have a more scientific, observational approach. --LBCCCP 01:45, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Well then this is simply a dispute between two different and recognizable sources, your choosing to look at it from the anthropological viewpoint of the Maya, I'm choosing to view it from the scientific observations of Altman. Both descriptions are in the book, so thats a fair judgement, and I suppose its fair to open up alternate views on whether or not the marker is bipolar. -- Necropheliac 01:55, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :I am going to be blunt, im here to disagree . . . I am the obstinant person that keeps the conversation going, the one that comes up with new and interesting ideas so that the conversation doesnt devolved into :(if oyu watch atop the fourth wall imagine this in superboy primes voice) :GUY ONE: your idea is great :GUY TWO: MY idea is awesome :GUY ONE:My idea rocks, and thats hwo it works :GUY CORUS: we all agree with you :ITs better to explore every avenue of thought on these subject, than to just sit around pondering a single theory. Im here to help. Plus i cannot find a copy of martyr anywhere on gods green earth, im about to order it off amazon.com (i prefer venturing into the real world than to have teh world delivered to me) :And remember there is always the possibility that these markers are broken. AND remember that something had to kill the dinosaurs (DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUN ralok 02:01, February 10, 2011 (UTC) : : :And that is fair Ralok, I recognized that you are an objective voice just trying to keep this rolling in a different direction up above, you dont need to defend YOURSELF just because I disagree, you just need to defend your ideas. In the same way that your throwing out this different look at convergence, I'm trying my best to nullify your arguments with my own - thats the basis of debate, and thats what creates REAL progress in these discussions, if you find real sources and can back your ideas up in order to refute mine, were one step closer to solving the puzzle and getting a clearer look at the big picture. : :I got my copy of Martyr at chapters ( Canadas Barnes N' Noble ) but it took me a while, so I understand the frustration, read it when you get a chance, its a good book - and itll add alot to your arsenal. The book touches on the question of whether or not the markers are functioning as they are intended to, but thats all speculation, theres no real evidence suggesting that they are broken. And its also very likely that the meteor which struck the earth killed the dinosaurs ;). : :-- Necropheliac 02:11, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I know its likely that the impact of the marker killed the dinosaurs . . . but if the necromorophs are truely immortal then if it was them that killed the dinosaurs . . . there is the possibility of a boss battle featuring an infected dinosaur . . . So my version of it results in something completely awesome happening, now ask yourself WHAT DO YOU WANT TO BELIEVE, that the dinosaurs died from the enviromental change brought on by the impact, or that you will be fighting a giant t-rex zombie in the net game . . . be careful you cant have it both way (maniacal laugh) ralok 02:15, February 10, 2011 (UTC) That would ruin dead space for me. :-- Necropheliac 02:19, February 10, 2011 (UTC) really? why, i have to hear the logic against zombie dinosaurs ralok 02:20, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Just some idea I had... Maybe the creators of the Black Marker, i.e. the mysterious, unseen aliens, designed the whole thing, from the original to the copies to necromorphs and convergence as a fail-safe in case their species should ever go extinct? Since Nicole was talking about being reborn during the final battle... And a possible reason the marker from Aegis 7 repelled necromorphs while the one at the Sprawl didn't could be because proper convergence wasn't possible at the colony. If its maker was out of reach (or dead) and couldn't be absorbed, it might have tried to get rid of the "useless" necromorphs. After that, it waited until a suitable maker candidate showed up who could be used to make a new marker. :I honestly cannot help but feel that the necros are useless for convergence. PErhaps the surpression was there to try and keep the necros flesh fresh though, like waiting until there was sufficient biomass for a true convergence . . . . hmmm ralok 02:26, February 10, 2011 (UTC) : : On the contrary, I think that that is a reasonable and valuable observation, convergence was completely possible on the sprawl due to the fact that both Isaac and Stross were present and able to be absorbed thus completing true convergence. While the creators of the Aegis 7 marker had been dead for 200 years, thus making convergence impossible. "Make us whole again" could be referring to the revival of the alien race which created the markers, a failsafe to ensure they survived their "extinction event". Thats a good edition to this conversation. -- Necropheliac 02:32, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Hmmm maybe once Convergence is rendered impossible upon the removal of the/a creator from the environment, they become out of reach, die far away, whatever, the Marker switches functions. Maybe the Red Marker functioned like the Site 12 Marker early in its existence but, because of the removal of its creator(s), it has taken on the role of passive self-preservation rather than actively trying to start a Convergence event.--LBCCCP 03:06, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Sounds like a pretty reasonable conclusion to me. Sorry if I'm changing the topic too soon from this new development - I just dont know where else we can go with it until we find some disagreement. Back on the true topic of this discussion, what do we think CONVERGENCE actually IS? -- Necropheliac 04:32, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I think that in Martyr, they said that Convergence was when every human becomes a Necromorph. MatthewGold 04:24, February 10, 2011 (UTC) No, that is never explicitely said in Martyr; I just did a text scan on my Kindle version. Everytime Convergence is mentioned, the psychological defense mechanism either pushes back or the Marker itself pulls some reverse-psychology by saying it's not worth it or it's too late, but then playing up how great it would be. --LBCCCP 04:34, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Well thats an aspect of it that I agree with, but I mean, look at the conclusion of deadspace 2, all of the necromorphs are surrounding the marker, its clearly doing something interesting and unexplained which is referred to as "the convergence effect" by director Tiedeman. What do you think this "convergence effect" is, the creation of a hivemind? the revival of the creator race? other spins? -- Necropheliac 04:32, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Well it definitely means the creation of some type of network in which individuality is lost, but that could mean a lot of things, and not necessarily a Hive Mind which is more of a physical single being rather than a metaphorical one. --LBCCCP 04:36, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Which is not to say that I advocate a hivemind theory, I'm fairly certain the creeping blob from Martyr which absorbs everything is touches and grows bigger and bigger is the basis for the "large" necromorphs we see in the videogames - the hivemind, the leviathan, etc, but convergence by nature of its importance to the storyline must go beyond this. The eradication of individuality, the potential for immortality (in some form), maybe it even means that the marker itself absorbs all life associated in a convergence, all involved becoming one with the marker, as is alluded to by unitologist doctrine. -- Necropheliac 04:40, February 10, 2011 (UTC) :But remember, just because it was inspired by the hallucinations caused by the marker and teh marker itself does not mean that unitology represents fact. Remember different people react different ways, some people go crazy, others actually get info out of it (which supports my theory that humans are not evolved enough to communicate with it, and more advanced and intelligetn humans react better) ralok 05:08, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I think these three murals have a lot of significance regarding the nature of Convergence. Note the graves below the Marker, the waves (maybe a soul or essence) between the man on the cliff and the Marker. Maybe the one with the people flying 'ascending' is a portrait of the idea of Convergence. --LBCCCP 05:17, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Yes I know that unitology is most likely WRONG in whatever they speculate convergence to be, its probably not "glorious" from a human perspective at all, I'm just throwing out possiblities. The murals are a nice touch, I dont know what sort of evidence we can glean from them, but we can attempt to gain some understanding. I simply see a man attempting to communicate with the marker in the first one. I have NO idea what to make of the second one, I agree that it may be the ascendence of the souls of those who have gone through convergence, and the last one probably represents the marker being above death, and able to revive those who have died ( but kept there bodies in tact ). -- Necropheliac 05:46, February 10, 2011 (UTC) Well since the founders of Unitology were aware of Necromorphs and their relation to the Marker to a degree, Unitology is partly correct, they just twisted it to make it seem glorious to the public. But technically it is life after death and a new beginning, all that stuff. --LBCCCP 06:41, February 10, 2011 (UTC) I'd say more about that but I don't want to spoil Martyr for ralok. We can all have a detailed discussion about everything detailed in Martyr, and I'm sure we will, after he's read it. --LBCCCP 06:44, February 10, 2011 (UTC) RCPD_Detainee (Xbox) - Just moving my comments over to here on Necropheliac's suggestion. Ok i want people to remember the point where Nicole states "The Makers Must Be Absorbed", Now theres been some speculation that convergence is the point at which a marker combines all the available necromorphes into a Hivemind. However what if the Hivemind cant be created untill the creater of the marker has become infected themselves?. Now from what i can tell it would appear that while Isaac Clarke did provide the most pure and clear data for the construction of that giant marker, Nolan Stross also had a hand in its development (which is why he was also being drawn to the government sector). Due to this there were infact two builders of the giant marker. Now lets s analyse the Ubermorph, people have commented that it shares some similar characteristics to the Hivemind. Also lets remember that we only encounter one on the sprawl and when does it first show itself? when the necromorphs invade the government sector!!, One chapter after Nolan Stross meets his own maker. I've also read somewhere on this wikia that it can be heard saying Isaacs name at one point (cant confirm this myself as im too busy killing it). People should now be able to see where im going with this, i put it to you all that the ubermorph is the necromorph created from the transformation of an individual that has helped to create a marker. After the death of the creater (or creators) the convergence effect then probably merges the other necromorphes with the ubermorph to create a Hivemind. Let me know what you think. (RCPD - originally posted on the 9th Feb) I actually really like this theory, as it goes hand in hand with my contribution to the topic on convergence, the marker would not care where/when/how Isaac Clarke dies, as an infecter would find him, transform him, and he would eventually make his way to the marker to complete convergence. The fact that if he dies, he would transform into an un-killable "Ubermorph" backs this idea up big time, the marker simply wants the makers to die, it doesnt matter where. -- Necropheliac 20:22, February 9, 2011 (UTC) All of these new threads regarding Convergence should be posted within "What is Convergence? Cont."--LBCCCP 17:00, February 9, 2011 (UTC) :what is the purpose of creating a hivemind though, and then suppressing it? Try to remember people . . . dead space (1) does still exsist, its existence was not erased by the second game ralok 10:36, February 10, 2011 (UTC) : : :One thing that needs to be mentioned about the markers is their holographic nature. It was mentioned in the story that any piece of a marker contains the whole. With that being said I don't believe there is any possibility that a marker could function improperly or that one could be built that only partially works right. That would make the most sense. Ttoli Just had another thought, Isaac and Nolan were targets to be eliminated from the start of the infection by the security forces (remember that the outbreak has been going for less than a day when Isaac is freed from his chamber). Also Teinmann states that "We Never Expected This Many Bodies" when Isaac pulls the plug and lets the necromorphs into the government sector. I know its hard to believe but it appears if my original statement above holds true that the government sector expected the creators to turn into ubermorphes and wanted to control the Hivemind creation process. Perhaps if only a few necromorphes were supplied then the Hivemind would have been small enough to restrain and study. If thats the case then the Hivemind on Aegis 7 was what happened when the whole expedition got sucked into the fusion. Please keep in mind that the Earth-Gov have been experimenting with this stuff alot so they are bound to have learnt something and are probably trying to expand on that research with more high risk experiments (like caging and experimenting on a hivemind). Ultimate Necromorph lifeform (living dead) with pshycic abilities and control over others could prove very usefull if the secrets could be unlocked. Also further evidence of the Ubermorph being linked to a Hivemind is that it appears to be leading the Necromorph invasion of the Government sector. Casually walking in while the lesser Necromorphs sprint ahead to slaughter the security force (and also to take the bullets). '- RCPD_Detainee' RCPD, the role of the makers of a marker was already discussed earlier, but thank you for your contribution. Frankly, whether or not the creators become Ubermorphs upon infection doesn't seem to really matter at all in terms of anything, other than gameplay which has little to do with story. And the ubermorph can be killed. As also discussed on the previous thread, there seemed to be a consensus among the participants here that Tiedemann's Overseer knew full well that he was setting everything up to fail - fail in Tiedemann's eyes, as the opportune Unitologists would do what they could to pursue their own motives and infiltrate the project. Otherwise, it seems unlikely such a large residential area with a large population of Unitologists would have been chosen for the project. --LBCCCP 15:12, February 10, 2011 (UTC)